Why I use the Authorised Version, Reason .3
Who was Jesus’ Father?
This blogs title question is one that a child may ask and it may seem like a very stupid question on the surface, all Christians worth their salt affirm the truth of the Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus did not have a physical earthly father like you and I He was born by the miraculous intervention of God’s Holy Spirit. Joseph may have been one of His earthly parents but he was by no means His father. So why ask the question?
Well, the truth that I have just outlined becomes somewhat blurred by the modern translations of the Bible. A quick study of two incidents as recorded in Luke chapter 2 will illustrate what I mean.
In Luke Gospel chapter 2 verses 22-40 we read of how Mary and Joseph took the infant Lord Jesus to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord as commanded by Moses. In verse 27 of this passage in the King James Version Mary and Joseph are described as the Parents and this is correct, the Greek word correctly translated parents is the word ‘goneus’, the modern versions also translate this as parents. However, in verse 33 the Holy Spirit makes a distinction. The AV describes Mary and Joseph in the following terms ‘Joseph and his mother’. This is the correct rendering of four Greek words that mean exactly what the AV says. But this is not how the modern versions translate this phrase. The NIV, ESV, NCV and NASB all render the word Joseph as ‘father’ and the NLT continues to refer to them simply as the ‘parents’.
Now it must be said most clearly that Joseph was not the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, he may have been His parent, he may have performed the role of an earthly father but he was not the actual father and when the Holy Spirit makes that distinction clear in the Greek text then the translators should reflect it as such. This is a clear attack on the doctrine of the Virgin Birth. If Christ is not Virgin born then He was born in sin like the rest of us and how then could He have been a spotless sacrifice. The notion is blasphemous and these translation errors need to be exposed.
Just to prove that this was not a one-time mistake by the translators of the ‘New Bibles’ I want to show you how they did it again later on in the passage. You could maybe see past one mistake but to do it again tells me there is an agenda.
From verses 41-51 of Luke we find the record of how Mary and Joseph took the then 12 year-old Lord Jesus up to Jerusalem for the Passover feast. As in the previous story the Holy Spirit inspired Luke to use the word ‘goneus’ which is rightly translated by all versions as ‘parents’ in verse 41. However, once again we see a divergence from the Greek text. In verse 43 the same four Greek words are used as were in verse 33 and are rightly translated as ‘Joseph and his mother’ in the AV but the NIV translates the phrase as ‘his parents’ as does the ESV, NCV, NLT & NASB.
For my part I would rather have a Bible that is faithful to the original text. If the Holy Spirit puts a phrase a certain way there is clearly an important reason for it. I hope the modern translators are not trying to undermine belief in the virgin birth, for me that is how it appears and for that reason I’m sticking with the AV!
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It's not a translation error. It's a difference in the Greek texts. Most of the modern versions use slightly different Greek copies than the AV and NKJV uses, and this is one example. The former copies have 'his father' in Greek, while the latter have 'Joseph'. The translators translate accordingly.
ReplyDeleteThe AV and the NKJV both use the Textus Receptus, which has 'Joseph', but the Majority Text is used by some modern versions, and it also has 'Joseph'.
Again, what you're doing is looking for semantic discrepancies. However, you would never build an argument for the virgin birth from this passage... never. You would go to Matthew 1 which in NIV, NLT, ESV, you name it, spells out that Mary was a virgin, and conceived before coming together with Joseph. Perhaps you should be more concerned with the weightier things instead of trying to discourage people from reading a more understandable version of God's word. Remember the KJV isn't infallible, it's just a translation which uses outdated language.
ReplyDeletePeter,
ReplyDeleteYou said that, "you would never build an argument for the virgin birth from this passage... never."
Well, although the doctrine of the virgin birth is not "built" from this portion of scripture, it is certainly strengthened by it (when an accurate source is translated correctly).
The opposite is also true.
Not only is the doctrine of the person of Christ affected by corrupted texts, or inaccurate renderings into English (or any language for that matter), but Christ’s virgin birth is weakened by the use of "father" instead of "Joseph".
Of course Joseph was not the father of Jesus, neither physically nor spiritually. The reader of corrupted versions (not merely literarily, linguistically, but in this case even logically!) is given verses in which
Joseph and Mary are freely put together as Jesus’ ‘father and mother’.
As for your assertion that the KJV uses outdated language... you are actually showing a large degree of ignorance. The KJV NEVER used the lingo of the times or the street! Everyday 1611 English was vastly different from the language of the 1611 KJV. The KJV used what has correctly been described by linguistic scholars as "English at it's very best", as opposed to the veritable babel of todays dumbed down lingo. (Try using a Cambridge or Oxford dictionary to look up any words you don't understand... never failed for me!)
Interestingly, the whole push for "modern" (a wholly misplaced word!) versions was that "the Word of God [allegedly] needed to be made more accessible in a form that more folks could understand." Well, then the whole "modern" version project/s has been a disaster. Even during past times when education was not so widespread as it is today, far more people read the Bible (the KJV) and were much more familiar with, and demonstrably more keen to apply, the teachings of GOD's Word than they are today since these "modern" versions appeared on the scene.
Readability should never be mistaken for credibility.
The Beano and Dandy are very readable (modern and popular too!)...
Stephen, what is the difference between "Jesus' father and mother," and "Jesus' parents" as the KJV uses? Semantics that's what. Why don't we all just learn Greek and Hebrew? The English language has changed almost beyond recognition is 400 years, hence my comment that it is outdated language. The KJV is NOT inspired. It is not as literal a translation as the ESV for example, and probably not as accurate either.
ReplyDeletePeter,
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that Jesus was parented, not fathered by an earthly man (are you seriously suggesting that even in today's lingo there is no difference between the word "parent" and the word "father"?
Try that one on many a kid rom a broken home today (even one who speaks todays lingo) sometime and see what response you get! All kids (except Jesus) have an earthly father... very few kids today have parents!
Joseph was Jesus' parent, NOT Jesus' father... it's more than Semantics if you are an GOD fearing theologian... it is about the Deity of Christ!
"The English language has changed almost beyond recognition" - that is one of the biggest red-herrings I have ever heard, mate! It's completely untrue, too.
There is nothing in the KJV that is not understandable, armed with a decent Cambridge dictionary (or Oxford, if you must).
You speak as if it is written in the Old Nordic and Celtic mix of the early Viking days! lol
I think you are just being lazy and opting for what's hip rather than what's most accurate.
Your use of the other red-herring, "the KJV is not inspired" is telling! You pose the point as if you are countering a position I have stated.
Not so.
The KJV, you will notice from my comments here and on other threads associated with this blog, is that the KJV is the most accurate to date... and considering the criterion used to decide what is and what is not an accurate manuscript, etc., it doesn't look like we are going to get a more accurate version than the KJV any time soon!
As for "literalness" of translation... I want something that is a solidly literal translation from an ACCURATE manuscript... not something that is "more literal", but from a less accurate source.
Point in passing:
ReplyDeleteThe KJV actually states, "And Joseph and his mother marvelled" - clearly denying the fatherhood of Joseph in respect of Jesus birth and thus emphasising Christ's virginal birth via Mary.
That's a whole lot more than "semantics".
Read Wolfsbane's comment about texts above. Most manuscripts have greek pateer (father.)
ReplyDeleteSemantics, and pedantic ones, which don't have any bearing on doctrine, at that.
It does NOT undermine he virgin birth, or else the KJV's "parents" would also undermine it.
Peter,
ReplyDeleteMany of the Greek texts out there are corrupted (hence the reason they were not included in the "Textus Receptus")... your argument that a majority of texts say "x" "y" or "z" adds nothing to (nor detracts anything from) the point I have made. (Other than to demonstrate your constant use of the "red-herring" or "straw-man" argument.
"Parents" does mean something different to "father" and "mother", even in today's lingo.
I have already read Wolfbane's comment... I suggest you read mine (specifically where I have already outline the difference between "parent/s" and "mother and father").
I get the strong impression that you are about cherry-picking rather than serious scholarly and theological study. Serious, GOD fearing theologians (and linguists) will readily see that this issue concerns a whole lot more than mere "semantics" - it is about fundamental doctrinal truth!
Maurice... keep up the good work, brother... don't be discouraged when some people (evidently) refuse to listen.
As I am not scholarly enough for you (point well taken - I'm very much a layman.) I suggest you read one of the evangelical world's greatest scholars and Bible teachers. DA Carson's The KJV Debate. He will say it a lot more capably and graciously than I could. Discouraging people from reading God's word, translated into a modern and meaningful language is not helping people get to know God.
ReplyDeletePeter,
ReplyDeleteEncouraging people to read something that is corrupt (way beyond mere mistakes) is not encouraging them to read the VERY WORD OF GOD... and using terms like "modern" and contrasting it with the KJV and describing it as "archaic" is a far more dangerous activity. In fact, YOU are actually discouraging people from reading GOD's Word, when you turn them towards these corrupted "versions" and away from a far better version in the KJV.
I am encouraging people, just as folks for years encouraged me, to read the best and most accurate translation of GOD's Word in the English language (if they are English speakers, of course) when I encourage them to read the KJV.
It may also shock you to know that many foreign students have said to me that reading the KJV is EASIER (with a dictionary for unfamiliar words) because the KJV retains the singular AND the plural for "you", whereas many of these "modern" versions do not!
For your own information, I used to use all sorts of "modern" versions ... for years in fact. I was then brought to realise that these "modern versions" are dangerous and unnecessary, whereas the KJV is actually very readable, armed with a decent dictionary (if necessary). The brother who was used by GOD to open my eyes regarding this subject is far from scholarly... but his arguments were accurate and powerful... and in the end I had to swallow my pride and admit that I was wrong.
This whole "I'm a poor layman and therefore the KJV is to be disregarded" sort of argument is nothing more than yet another red-herring/strawman argument. It is also getting a bit old!
Some of the most uneducated people throughout the last 400 years were very well nourished by GOD's Word in the KJV translation (and continue to be!)
We should strive for excellence in translation and aim to improve and change things for the better. THAT is exactly what the KJV did... as a recent BBC article even pointed out... the KJV didn't USE the 1611 English of the day or the street, it IMPROVED the language! That's what makes the KJV (amongst other reasons) stand out from the rest - it challenges and improves people's understanding of GOD (Theology), because it was accurately translated from ACCURATE SOURCES, whereas these so-called "modern versions" decay it and seek to change the Scriptures to suit the sinful appetites of men (as opposed to challenging them), and DEMONSTRABLY so given the history of these "modern versions" and their impact.
As for DA Carson's book regarding the KJV, I am familiar with it, as I actually wrote a paper on this very subject and sought to study as widely and as exhaustibly as possible for it and I am not convinced by his work. I am not writing the bloke off, he is very good on many subjects, but the KJV and translations, etc. is certainly not his crowning achievement.
So, I would encourage you to stop rhyming off other people's cliches and start thinking for yourself regarding this matter... you may have to change your view (something I found hard, but by GOD's grace had to).
After all, wouldn't you agree that it is important to have GOD's blessing upon our reading of His Word? How can we ask Him to bless a corrupted version (just because we "like it" or "prefer it") when we have a much more accurate version in the KJV available to us?
All right, you win. I'm going to trash all my other versions and hoke out my old KJV (sorry AV,) oh and while I'm at it, I'll toss all my Carson, RC Sproule, R Kent Hughes, etc, etc. What do they know anyway? You must be right. I mean what do the majority of evangelical Bible and language scholars know, not to mention translators.
ReplyDeleteIt must be strange to spend so much time reading God's word (NIV, ESV, NLT,) - as you obviously do to know so much about them - just to find issues and mistranslations, rather than reading them to know God. Do you not feel that it, like this discussion is just a waste of time? I blame myself in part for keeping it going but I just can't help myself with you KJV only-ers.
Peter,
ReplyDeleteI think our discussion has actually been of value... especially your last comment which actually proves more than anything else that you are an angry, unmeasured man with rebellion in your heart, as opposed to someone who is earnestly and genuinely interested in engaging properly in a discussion about the importance of accuracy of translation.
I do not seek "just to find issues and mistranslations"... Rather, I seek to expose any corrupt version of Scripture and warn people from being corrupted by them! ...and encouraging folks to read the most accurate translation in English, thus far, the KJV.
Also, your last comment is not only unfair (as you deliberately infer that I am writing off the entire ministries of the men you mentioned - which is patently untrue - and I think people reading this blog and seeing what I have said in my previous comments in this thread, from whichever position, will see that), but you are, again, proving yourself to be someone who cannot or does not think for themselves. You continually fall back upon the "straw-man" argument. You do not address an issue, you engage in verbal vandalism and run on to attack some other point (or alleged point) ad hoc. the moment your half-baked "hit and-run" tactics fail.
I am not asking you to agree with me, nor am I interested in "winning an argument" ... I can think of more rewarding ways in which to do that! Rather, I am interested in countering attempts of people like you who ignorantly ridicule the KJV, not primarily because you are sincerely interested in people being exposed to the Word of GOD, but because, well, you just don't see the KJV as YOUR kinda thing.
Oh, and by the way, accuracy and orthodoxy is not decided by a show of hands, mate! Democracy is how we organise our country; but it is a major mistake to use popularity as your guide post when it comes to deciding which translation is the most accurate and therefore the best!
After all, I could list names of great scholars and teachers too... but THAT would be a waste of time, because THAT doesn't settle the argument as regards translation. Just because the majority of people today read a "modern" version does not mean that the question of accuracy is settled! It simply means that the majority of Christians today are reading less accurate, and more corrupted versions... which may help explain why the level of Biblical knowledge as per the average layman today is much less, according to every major poll, than it was 25 or 30 years ago! So much for people being exposed to GOD's Word! So, I don't think statistical popularity is a very solid way to support YOUR case, at any rate!
At the end of the day, Peter, it's what GOD thinks that you should be concerned with... does His smile attend your reading of a corrupted version when you have a far more accurate version available (the KJV) in your mother tongue?
I tend to get the impression that your issue is not so much about versions... it's more about pride of heart.
In response to your (evidently contemptuously motivated) phrase, "KJV only-ers", I would offer you this as my response:
I will happily accept and read a version of the Scriptures in English other than the KJV if it is a more accurate translation than the KJV... but until such a version appears (and to date there isn't one, due to the current translation methodologies and philosophies and corrupted sources being used to furnish these "modern" versions), WHY ON EARTH would I waste my time reading (and/or promoting) something that is in any way less accurate, indeed, dangerously inaccurate?
Ah Stephen, you are incorrect in your understanding of my point. I have not ridiculed the KJV. If that's what people think is the best translation, I'm happy for them to use it. It is the KJV Only-ers that I have an issue with. Seems a bit like Phariseeism under a different name. "You must read this version or you are rebelling against God." I'm sure you'll have some great response to this as you will probably want the last word on the subject. Although, perhaps, when you can't even infer my point from my plain English, (maybe too modern for you?)you aren't the most appropriate "authority" on which translation I should read. You guys crack me up.
ReplyDeletePeter,
ReplyDeleteI'll happily give you the last word on this one (if your last comment is anything to go by - as it goes a long way to exposing your real motivation)... you are just being plain dishonest!
Ha ha. I knew you couldn't resist with the last word. I'm afraid to tell you that your spiritual gifting isn't a 'word of knowledge' if you feel I am being dishonest. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
ReplyDeleteAnyway... I win.
You should listen to this for a different perspective: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=312102116455
ReplyDeleteMark,
ReplyDeleteYou should listen to this for a more informed perspective:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1220071032406
For those who are GENUINELY interested, here is a recording of a presentation which takes each and every single point raised by Wolfsbane and Peter, and addresses each point, one by one:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=12307142243
For those who are interested in the facts behind the spin:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakerWithinSource=&subsetCat=&subsetItem=&mediatype=&includekeywords=&keyword=king+james+OR+kjv&keyworddesc=KJV+Controversy&currsection=sermonstopic&AudioOnly=false&speakerwithin=chase&x=18&y=13
For those who want an honest and more informed appraisal, the following may be of help:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12407102458
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1300793836
And specifically regarding the NKJV:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=3901143621